MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
In an era where false claims are the norm, it's much easier to ignore the fact-checkers. Those are the final words of the final column of Glenn Kessler, who has been the fact-checker at The Washington Post these last 14 years. Kessler is one of many journalists making high-profile exits from The Post, some of whom cite the new direction the paper's leadership is taking. Glenn Kessler, welcome.
GLENN KESSLER: Glad to be with you.
KELLY: As you thought through on what note you wanted to leave, what you wanted to be your parting thought, walk me through the process and how difficult or not that was.
KESSLER: Well, so I have been running the fact-checker now for 14 1/2 years. And what struck me was how when I reviewed the 3,000 or so fact-checks I had written or edited...
KELLY: Three thousand, wow.
KESSLER: ...(Laughter) Yes. There was a very clear dividing line in the period, which was June 2015. And that's when Donald Trump took the escalator down and announced he was running for president. Before that moment, politicians paid attention to fact-checks. They would, you know, be shamed by the Pinocchios that I would award. And they tried to keep their claims tethered to the truth as much as you would expect a politician to do. But Trump really changed the dynamic, and he said many things that were false. And even though he was fact-checked as false, he would simply double down or triple down and keep saying them.
KELLY: Go back, Glenn Kessler, and just briefly explain your Pinocchio system for those who are not familiar with your column. Pinocchio, of course, being the little boy whose nose grew when he told a lie.
KESSLER: So at the fact-checker, we would take a statement by a politician and determine its factual accuracy, and we would award at the end a certain number of Pinocchios in terms of how accurate it was. So the worst rating was four Pinocchios for complete whopper, a lie, if you will. And, you know, two Pinocchios would be something that was half true. Three Pinocchios would be mostly false. So it's kind of like a reverse restaurant review.
KELLY: Right (laughter). You would like a low number of stars.
KESSLER: Yes. And we did have the Geppetto check mark, which was awarded for claims that were unexpectedly true.
KELLY: So I mentioned the new direction that The Post's leadership is taking, including owner Jeff Bezos' decision that the editorial pages should - going forward should promote personal liberties and free markets and not publish pieces that oppose those principles. For the record, Glenn Kessler, were you ever censored? Were you ever told by your bosses at The Post, hey, maybe stay away from fact-checking that one thing?
KESSLER: No, not at all. I had complete freedom. I had extraordinary freedom. And I should note very clearly that there's no indication that Jeff Bezos has ever interfered in any of the news side of the newspaper. As the owner, he, of course, has the right to impose whatever kind of policies he wants on the editorial page, the opinion page. I mean, that's a traditional prerogative of an owner, and I don't begrudge him for if he wanted the editorial page to be libertarian or a super conservative or a super liberal. That's his decision as the owner.
KELLY: I do want to ask about what is happening in your newsroom, to the extent that you can comment on it. Some of your colleagues, former and current, have described a hollowing-out of The Post newsroom. Is that the way you see it?
KESSLER: I would agree with that. It's very sad to see so many talented, experienced reporters and editors leave the newsroom, particularly some who are at the height of their careers, who go to some of our competitors, like The New York Times or The Atlantic. And I don't quite understand the rationale for offering this buyout so broadly. I mean, it worked out well for me, but I think it's a mistake 'cause they're losing really excellent people.
KELLY: Well, Glenn Kessler, I wish you well, much joy and much luck in your next chapters to come.
KESSLER: Thank you very much.
KELLY: Glenn Kessler. He is the outgoing fact-checker at The Washington Post.
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