MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
As part of President Trump's renewed focus on what he sees as disorder and lawlessness in the nation's capital, he has said he wants to remove homeless encampments and force unhoused people out of the city, or at least out of sight. This is what he said at a press briefing Monday.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: There are many places that they can go, and we're going to help them as much as you can help. But they'll not be allowed to turn our capital into a wasteland for the world to see.
MARTIN: We've been trying to understand more about what such an operation would actually look like, so we've called Amber Harding. She's executive director of The Washington Legal Clinic for the Homeless. That's a nonprofit here in the district that provides legal services to people affected by homelessness and works on policy reform. And she's with us now. Amber Harding, thanks so much for joining us.
AMBER HARDING: Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: So how many people are we talking about, and where do they tend to be?
HARDING: I think we have around 800 or 900 people who are unsheltered, who are living outside. We do not have any large tent cities. We do not have large groups of homeless people in any sort of concentrated way. We have people who, you know, haven't been able to access shelter housing resources making do where they can.
MARTIN: White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt told our correspondent Tamara Keith that people will be given the option to leave their encampment, taken to homeless shelters or offered addiction or mental health services. And that if they refuse, quote, "they will be susceptible to fines or jail time," unquote. And she cited what she said were preexisting laws that haven't been enforced. First of all, what's your understanding of this?
HARDING: If I say to you, Michel, you have to go to shelter or take these services or, you know, some sort of involuntary treatment even though you don't qualify for involuntary commitment, and you say no, there's nothing in the law that says I get to arrest you. That is not something that exists in our law.
MARTIN: Does the District of Columbia have shelter space for 800 people at the moment?
HARDING: No, they do not. When this increased federal enforcement notice came out, there was not a single shelter bed available. But D.C. government opened 60 additional beds and are looking now to try to find even more beds.
MARTIN: Do the people you work with who are unhoused at the moment, are they aware of this effort to remove people?
HARDING: Yeah. I think outreach workers, including our outreach team, have been doing their best to walk a line of informing people about the risks without fearmongering. There has been pretty much zero coordination with the local government on this. You know, the things you and I do in our home are perfectly lawful. And if we did many of those things outside of our home, they would not be lawful. I can have a glass of wine with my dinner. I'm not violating any law. If I have a glass of wine outside, I can be arrested for open container.
And so it's a broader body of law that impacts people who are living outside. People on the street have more interaction with government agencies and with 17 police forces on a daily basis. Everything they do is outside and in public. They are the segment of the community that is the most scrutinized for criminal behavior.
MARTIN: The president speaks of things in a very blunt way. At its core, he's saying people shouldn't be living on the street. Is there a difference of opinion with the advocacy community around this? There has been a time in this country when some advocates considered living on the street a lifestyle choice. Is this a disagreement about the best way to move people off the street, or is there a philosophical difference about whether people should be living on the street at all?
HARDING: I mean, I think there is a possible difference of opinion as to what the consequences should be for that choice, and a difference of education and experience in what leads to someone deciding to sleep on the street. So just to say that there is a lot of focus on the individual without an understanding of the systemic forces that lead to someone having to sleep outside, right? I don't hear any advocates say that it is a good or a positive thing for anyone to be homeless or for anyone to sleep on the street. I think it is a far cry from saying we all agree no one should be on the street to jump to institutionalizing, criminalizing people who are on the street when they have no other choices.
MARTIN: Is there a consensus around what works best?
HARDING: Yes, housing. If I were developing a policy and I were saying, what is a proven intervention that effectively takes people off the street? That is affordable housing. It is cheaper than jail. It is cheaper than institutions. It is not effective to put someone in jail for a night. Where are they going when they get out? They're going back to the street. You haven't solved the problem.
MARTIN: If the administration moves forward with this plan - and you're telling us that the city is already scrambling - what are groups like yours going to do?
HARDING: When you say this plan, it makes it sound like there's a plan. And I don't know the plan. It depends on whether they do it in a lawful way or an unlawful way. If they do it in an unlawful way, we will do our best to stop it. If they do it in a lawful way, we'll do our best to get our clients out of harm's way.
MARTIN: That's Amber Harding. She's executive director of The Washington Legal Clinic for the Homeless. Thanks so much for joining us and sharing these insights with us.
HARDING: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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