SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Immigration enforcement has dominated the headlines over the past year. And as ICE agents have found out across the country - to cities like Charlotte, Los Angeles and Chicago - Catholic bishops in the U.S. have waded into this deeply partisan issue.
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BLASE CUPICH: Families are being torn apart. Children are left in fear. And communities are shaken by immigration raids and detentions. These actions wound the soul of our city. Let me be clear. The Church stands with migrants.
DETROW: That is Cardinal Blase Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago. His city, and many Catholics within it, became the target of the administration's immigration enforcement efforts earlier this year. And as 2025 comes to an end, we wanted to get his sense of where he and the U.S. Catholic Church stand on immigration in this moment. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
CUPICH: Thank you, Scott.
DETROW: You have merely spoken clearly about the administration's immigration policies, denouncing many aspects of them and the way they've been carried out in Chicago and elsewhere. What's also notable to me is how outspoken the U.S. Bishops' Conference as a whole has been. Why is that?
CUPICH: First of all, it's important to keep in mind that we said in our statement that every state has an obligation and a right to secure its borders, but it should be done in such a way - especially when you take into consideration that people have been here for generations - in a way that respects their humanity. We have found that the indiscriminate mass deportation of people does violate that principle of human dignity being protected, and that is why we have spoken out.
DETROW: Can you talk more about that? Because I've had this conversation with other cardinals as well, that somebody can be in the country illegally, and there can be a removal process. And they can be removed from the United States following the law, and that there is a way that this has gone about in terms of an aggressive tactic, cruel social media and other, you know, messaging about it, and that to you and others, there is a clear difference. The way it's being carried out matters to you. Why is that?
CUPICH: Well, the way it's being carried out in two perspectives. The first one, in terms of the way that people are just, all of a sudden, apprehended, and they're separated from their families and their children at a moment's notice in a very indiscriminate way. But the other aspect of the way they're doing it is due to the broken immigration system we have. People have been here for decades, and they've held down jobs. They've started businesses. They've employed people. They paid taxes. And now, all of a sudden, there's an effort to have them removed without any due process or taking into consideration the fact that they're here due to the fact that the elected officials didn't do their job and fix a broken immigration system. So we think there has to be significant changes in the immigration system that we have in this country.
DETROW: I want to talk specifically with you about one tension point between the church and ICE that happened this year. There were several attempts by priests and other Catholics to bring the Eucharist to a detention facility. They were repeatedly denied entry. Why was that important for people to try to do, in your mind?
CUPICH: Well, it wasn't just to bring the Eucharist, it was to offer pastoral care to people. Because we felt as though that's part of our ministry, too, to visit those who are imprisoned, those who are detained. And we just knew that there were people who had a need for pastoral attention that we have done in countless ways with people who are in different incarcerations and prisons.
DETROW: Were you surprised that they were denied entry?
CUPICH: Yes, I was. I was surprised that there was no opportunity given to discuss how we could do this in a way that respects their obligations in terms of law enforcement, which we've always had. The fact that it was an absolute no and wouldn't even talk to us was something that was altogether different. I think there has been some movement on that, and I'm pleased about that.
DETROW: Movement in what way?
CUPICH: We have had discussions, looking for a way in which we can begin a discussion with those who are responsible for these detainees. And at least now we're beginning to have some conversations with them, which was lacking before.
DETROW: I want to shift gears a little bit because that particular issue is something that Pope Leo spoke out on.
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POPE LEO XIV: The spiritual rights of people who have been detained should also be considered. And I would certainly invite the authorities to allow pastoral workers to attend to the needs of those people.
DETROW: And Cardinal, I was curious how you thought about this, how the support and the statements of an American pope, a Chicago native, have changed or affected the way that you and other church leaders in the U.S. have approached the immigration issue.
CUPICH: Well, I think that what the Holy Father has said on a number of occasions with regard to this issue helped the bishops when they came together in Baltimore to really frame the issues that resulted in the statement that we issued. He covered a lot of bases, and all of those points were really integrated and represented in our statement. So I think he bucked us up a bit, but he also gave us a framework on how to discuss these issues.
DETROW: Cardinal, it's a political time right now. You know that. People who voice their opinion are criticized. The majority of U.S. Catholics did vote for President Trump, according to Pew. And I'm wondering, have you had conversations with Catholics in and around Chicago this year who have said, you know what, Cardinal? You're wrong. The laws are the laws, and they need to be enforced.
CUPICH: There are people who have expressed that. And we always start with the understanding that, of course, laws have to be respected and the government has a right and a duty to secure its borders. However, my point would be that the enforcement of the law has been episodic and irregular. And so now, all of a sudden, to come in with altogether different way in which it's going to be approached, ignoring the fact that there's been a past by which people have been here for decades, doesn't seem to be not only the moral thing to do but a smart way to do it given the fact that we have 11 million people here, and there's no way that all of those people are going to be deported. So how do we deal with this in a reasonable way? That would be my point as I would address that issue with Catholics.
DETROW: It's very clear that ICE and Border Patrol agents are going to continue targeting different cities going forward. I'm wondering what you have learned this year, and what your advice would be for a fellow bishop in a city that finds it under this microscope in 2026.
CUPICH: I would say, first of all, put together a program by which you can be of assistance to migrants, to immigrants who are here who don't have documents, to put together a set of resources, legal resources by which, in fact, they can have their due process rights respected. Then also set up a means by which they can be supported in terms of their own physical needs, by food pantries and other ways in which they would need assistance that way.
And then, secondly, being an advocate. Having, as I tried to do in the statement that you played earlier - I think we have to have a very strong voice to encourage them that they're not alone in this moment. And that is something the bishops wanted to convey in the statement that they had. How do we convey a sense of advocacy on their behalf, letting them know that they're not alone?
DETROW: That's Cardinal Blase Cupich, the Archbishop of Chicago. Thank you so much for talking to us, Cardinal.
CUPICH: Thanks, Scott. Good to be with you.
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