MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Two major events are happening this summer. It's hot as hell outside in much of the U.S., just as millions of workers have been told to go back to the office. Remember that place, the office? There was even a TV show about it on NBC.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
KATE FLANNERY: (As Meredith Palmer) What's wrong with my outfit?
PAUL LIEBERSTEIN: (As Toby Flenderson) You might consider pulling it down a touch. It's riding up a little high.
FLANNERY: (As Meredith Palmer) Bunch of prudes.
MARTIN: So what do you wear to the office when you might not have been wearing pants at home? Let's ask Johnny C. Taylor Jr. He is president and CEO of the Society for Human Resource Management. Johnny C. Taylor, good morning. Thanks for joining us.
JOHNNY C TAYLOR JR: Thank you, Michel. Good to be here.
MARTIN: OK. I'm going to put you on the spot. What did you wear to work today?
TAYLOR: A polo. A polo and some sort of khaki pants. Normally, I'm in more formal attire, but it is just too hot.
MARTIN: Are there really even dress codes anymore? Is that still a thing?
TAYLOR: Is it a code in the way that we thought about it 20, 30 years ago? No. Women have hose, guys have suit ties, etc.
MARTIN: Wait wait. Hose - explain that. I don't know that everybody knows what hose is.
TAYLOR: (Laughter) So - that's too funny. So for those who don't know, there was a time when women were expected to wear things like pantyhose. You could never come - wear a dress, for example, and not have some pantyhose on. That's...
MARTIN: For the uninitiated, pantyhose is tights, only it's supposedly the same color as your actual...
TAYLOR: Skin.
MARTIN: ...Skin.
TAYLOR: Thank you, Michel.
MARTIN: OK.
TAYLOR: That's too funny because I'm, like...
MARTIN: Yeah.
TAYLOR: ...I don't know. I never wore them, so I'm just using - I have two sisters and this - but my mother, I can remember her telling them slips under your dresses. It's just a different world. There were dress codes. Those don't really exist, except in environments where you're forced to wear a uniform.
MARTIN: I mean, I understand that dress codes can be very controversial, but I do wonder if some cases it's more nerve-racking (laughter) to not be told what people - it's almost like one of those unwritten rules that if you violate it, there's a consequence, but you don't actually know what it is.
TAYLOR: Clarity is your friend. With this newfound flexibility now, you're right. You're in a world where you're subject to the sense of your employer. If that person feels some sort of way about how you dress, oftentimes they won't tell you, but it will impact your career trajectory.
MARTIN: So obviously, dress codes or guidelines are going to vary, depending on your specific job. But do you think there's a benefit to a workplace culture where people are dressed up a little bit more?
TAYLOR: Growing up, my mother said, don't dress for the job you have, but dress for the job you want. If you're trying to position yourself, if you want to stand out, my opinion is that dressing up a little - overdressing can hurt you, as well, by the way. If you overdress in a culture where people don't do that, then you stand out potentially negatively - right? - if it actually hurts you.
MARTIN: Interesting. So you think people think you're stuck-up or you...
TAYLOR: That's right.
MARTIN: ...Don't really belong there.
TAYLOR: That's right.
MARTIN: Something like that. That's interesting.
TAYLOR: That's right.
MARTIN: OK. This is another controversial issue. Are you ready?
TAYLOR: Uh-oh. Get ready.
MARTIN: OK. Shorts - yes, maybe, no, or hell no?
TAYLOR: Hell no.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
TAYLOR: Unless you're a Phys Ed teacher or a gym instructor, the answer is no under any circumstances. And, believe it or not, this is hotly contested.
MARTIN: It is hotly contested. A lot of designers...
TAYLOR: Yes.
MARTIN: ...Are making short suits.
TAYLOR: Listen. No. Ninety-five percent of workplaces - that would not cut it.
MARTIN: OK. And another one - sandals?
TAYLOR: So sandals generally are OK, particularly when it's hot. However, make sure your feet are in order, right?
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: That's Johnny C. Taylor Jr. He is the president and CEO of the Society for Human Resource Management. Johnny C. Taylor, thanks so much for talking with us.
TAYLOR: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF ANCHORSONG'S "CEREMONY") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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