A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Let's take a closer look at the FlyDubai flight investigation with Lara Burns. She's a retired FBI special agent with more than 23 years of experience in international terror investigations. She's now the head of terrorism research at the Program on Extremism at The George Washington University.
Lara, I think one of the things that has drawn me into this story, along with a lot of people, is that when we think about an airplane being taken over, we think of the threat outside of the cockpit. This one came inside of the cockpit. I mean, are we entering a brand-new world here?
LARA BURNS: Yes. I think we are. The most troubling question - you know, as you alluded to - it's not simply how an individual gained access to a plane, but how someone with prior security concerns was able to move through the aviation system at large and ultimately obtain access to a passenger aircraft cockpit, which has traditionally been seen as the safe area of the plane. You know, post 9/11, the safety measures that were put in place were designed to protect against threats emanating from outside the cockpit.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, what concerns you the most at this point in the investigation? What are you thinking about the most?
BURNS: I'm thinking about how we prevent another incident like this because, again, you know, our safety mechanisms and our, you know, view on threats to aviation have changed tremendously. So the question is, how do you identify a terrorist or extremist threat when the individual isn't trying to get onto the airplane but already has a seat in the cockpit? How do you vet for extremist behavior?
That vetting needs to happen to complement your conventional background checks. And it can't stop when a pilot gets his license. That vetting process must continue. You know, radicalization can happen at any time. And so I think that we really have to change our view on how we look at the threat to aviation overall, but looking very seriously at vetting procedures for pilots who have access to those cockpits.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. So The Associated Press reported that UAE officials shared a - with Israel a list of passengers and crew for the FlyDubai flight. And that list did not seem to raise any red flags at all with Israeli authorities. Why do you think that is?
BURNS: You know, I - it sounds like there were likely some failures in the vetting procedures, right? The individuals are supposed to be vetted prior to having access to an aircraft that's going to fly into Israel, and that apparently did not happen. What I worry about is the finger-pointing, right? Everyone wants to blame everyone else. But in reality, what needs to happen is we need to have open, honest investigations to determine where the security failures occurred, where the vetting failed, so that those areas can be identified and then improved, right? It's not helpful for everyone to be blaming everyone else. We need transparent accounting of where the failures occurred so that then the - those failures can be addressed and prevented the next time.
MARTÍNEZ: So, Lara, officials also told the Associated Press that the suspect was an Omani national who had been barred from piloting by Oman Air because of extremist views. How do you think he wound up up co-piloting the flight on FlyDubai? I mean, do airlines typically share this kind of information?
BURNS: You know, that is a great question. You know, we're talking about a situation where you have an individual with security concerns that didn't just gain access to a plane. He somehow managed to move through the aviation system, obtain a job as a pilot and then gain access to a passenger aircraft cockpit en route to Tel Aviv. And, you know, that's a great question. Like, was information shared between countries? Was there information shared between airlines? And we don't have those answers yet, but certainly authorities are going to be investigating to try to determine how this individual passed whatever security and vetting procedures were put in place, right? What did FlyDubai do to vet this individual before hiring him? What did they do for ongoing vetting procedures to ensure that this pilot and others, you know, were up to the standards that a pilot should be, that they did not pose an insider threat? But the broader question is going to be, was there information sharing between the country of Oman and the country of the UAE and other countries in the region regarding this individual's extremist past and radicalization?
MARTÍNEZ: Should that be something that countries are forced to do somehow? And if so, how would it be able to be enforced?
BURNS: You know, there is an information sharing process among countries that have diplomatic relations. The problem is that not all countries have diplomatic relations. And when it comes to individuals that have extremist pasts and are believed to be security concerns, that information really does need to be passed whether or not there are diplomatic relations between countries. If an individual migrates from one country to the next, one would hope that the security concerns that the originating country had would be passed to the, you know, country of destination. That's not always the case.
MARTÍNEZ: It just seemed like opening the door was the only thing that saved everyone from just certain death, I'm assuming, if the plane crashes. Is there something that maybe needs to be done to have communication to outside of the cockpit for anyone in the cockpit that is being threatened?
BURNS: Absolutely. I mean, you know, there are measures put in place. Like, there is that release inside the cockpit.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
BURNS: But what happens if, as in this instance, the co-pilot is disabled? So there are going to have to be enhanced measures put in place that allow for an emergency response when one or both of the captains inside the cockpit are disabled.
MARTÍNEZ: Lara Burns is a retired FBI special agent now at the Program on Extremism at The George Washington University. Lara, thanks.
BURNS: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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